Steven Jamar suggested that the Noble Eightfold path and five precepts were second-level 'accretions' in Buddhism. If that were the case, the Budhha must have taught the Three Noble Truths, and left others to work out a fourth!
>Steven Jamar suggested that the Noble Eightfold path and five precepts were second-level 'accretions' in Buddhism. If that were the case, the Budhha must have taught the Three Noble Truths, and left others to work out a fourth!
Jamar's not so far off. The Fourth Truth is nirodha, while the eightfold path may be an addition. Nirodha merely says it can be stopped. The Path offers one scheme of how to do the stopping in broadstroaks.
Evidence also exists that dependent origination was originally an 8 step model. Throughout most of its history buddhism has not been a fixed or frozen tradition, and sutras were written for at least 16 centuries. In similar vein, I find the Kyoto School so fascinating because its century of activity has taken buddhism yet another giant step forward.
Gassho,
Ken O'Neill
Dear Ken,
where might it be found that the fourth noble truth is nirodha *without* the path being given as the 8fold one? That's an interesting idea; I have seen the fourth referred to simply as nirodha but thought it simply a convenient abbreviated way to refer to the 8fold path itself. also where can dependent origination be found as an 8part schema? thank you,
in peace,
Jinavamsa
>Dear Ken,
>where might it be found that the fourth noble truth is nirodha *without* the path being given as the 8fold one? That's an interesting idea; I have seen the fourth referred to simply as nirodha but thought it simply a convenient abbreviated way to refer to the 8fold path itself. also where can dependent origination be found as an 8part schema? thank you,
>in peace,
>Jinavamsa
Hahaha, now you got me. I'm beginning to wonder if when you get around 50 memory fades; so does my wife; and it just may be that we've found a wonderful excuse that makes all sorts of problems disappear - delusively!s
I know well that the dependent origination point was brought up in an article by Alex Wayman, probably published in the late 60s or early 70s. What a brilliant response. But I actually read back then, and it was fairly hot off the academic press. I may even have a copy tucked in one of my binders; if so, I'll provide you with the reference. Just be patient for a day or two. We have our big weekly program today, and it's a special event including a Japanese tea ceremony - then we close escrow on our Dharma Center starting tuesday. Big week, so I may be a bit slow.
As for the eightfold path being an add on to the four truths, that's my intuition - or maybe I read it somewhere. I've been involved in Buddhism for thirty years, read widely, but not as an accountant keeping detailed records. At times points process through my own thinking, applying them to other items. The four truths as a whole are organically perfect; their origins are a healing system. On the other hand, the eightfold path just doesn't have that kind of organic unity - at least as I see it. It seems much more arbitrary; how do the links connect? Just a topic for cnotemplation.
Gassho,
ken
Regarding variations on the number of nidaanas, there are many different lists given in the early canonical literature, some shorter and some longer, but most if not all having a core sequence in common. Erich Frauwallner provides one useful summary survey of the varients in his _Philosophie des Buddhismus_, 29-60, of which there is, I believe, an English translation though I do not have the reference. One of the 9-fold nidaana chains he cites is in "Mahaanidaana-suttanta" itself (Diiga-nikaaya xiv: 19-22). I don't recall off-hand, but I suspect Lamotte treats this topic thoroughly as well in his _Histoire bouddhism indien_ (also available in Eng. translation).
Regarding a varient of the Four Truths with nirodha as the fourth, I am rather dubious I must say. What, Ken, would be the third truth if the fourth is give as nirodha (cessation) rather than marga (path)?
Hope this helps.
*************************************
Alan Sponberg, Professor of Asian Philosophy and Religion Asian Studies Program,
Arts & Sciences Bldg. University of Montana, Missoula, MT 59812 E-mail:
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Ken O'Neill writes:
'The Fourth Truth is nirodha, while the Eightfold Path may be an addition. Nirodha merely says it can be stopped. The Path offers one scheme of how to do the stopping in broadstrokes. Evidence also exists that dependent origination was originally an 8 step model...'
In a later posting he writes:
'The four truths as a whole are organically perfect... On the other hand, the eightfold path just doesn't have that kind of organic unity... It seems more arbitrary; how do the links connect?'
In reply:
In fact the //nirodha// (cessation) of //dukkha// (by means of the //nirodha// of craving) is the THIRD not FOURTH truth.
The fourth truth is the Noble Eightfold Path which leads to the //nirodha// of //dukkha//.
The four truths are basically:
i) the problem: //dukkha//
ii) its cause
iii) affirmation that the problem can be solved, by removing the cause
iv) how to do this, by the Noble Eightfold Path.
As Ken says, these //are// organically related together, including the fourth. As to how the factors of the path fiti together, see eg. P.Harvey, //An Introduction to Buddhism// (Cambridge University Press, 1990), pp.68-72
As regards dependent origination, variations on the standard twelve links are found in the early texts: as I see it, simply as ways of empahsising different aspects of the same overall process. The 12 (or whatever) links are not factors to be //practised//, as are the 8 factors of the path. Among other things, the Pali Suttas say that the Noble Eightfold Path leads to the //nirodha// of each of the twelve links of dependent origination (as these culminate in //dukkha//).
Of course, the Mahaayaana later developed different perspectives on and interpretations of the Four Holy Truths: but this is different from keeping the first three and jettisoning the fourth. In fact, the Bodhisattva path, to a large extent, can be seen as a re-formulation of the Eightfold Path, with, in particular, greater emphasis being given to compassion.
But maybe we are getting of the point of the conference. I just could not resist the opportunity of defending the right (!) of the four noble truths not to be garbled!!
Peter Harvey
>Regarding variations on the number of nidaanas, there are many different lists given in the early canonical literature, some shorter and some longer, but most if not all having a core sequence in common. Erich Frauwallner provides one useful summary survey of the varients in his _Philosophie des Buddhismus_, 29-60, of which there is, I believe, an English translation though I do not have the reference. One of the 9-fold nidaana chains he cites is in "Mahaanidaana-suttanta" itself (Diiga-nikaaya xiv: 19-22). I don't recall off-hand, but I suspect Lamotte treats this topic thoroughly as well in his _Histoire bouddhism indien_ (also available in Eng. translation).
>Regarding a varient of the Four Truths with nirodha as the fourth, I am rather dubious I must say. What, Ken, would be the third truth if the fourth is give as nirodha (cessation) rather than marga (path)?
Thanks Alan; the truth is that I goofed writing on the fly. Marga it is; do/michi in Japanese. And thanks for the references.
Ken
Ken,
much good fortune for all those who may be touched by your Center, closing escrow this week. even granting for the moment that we see that the eight parts of the eight-fold path do not have the tight interlocking characteristics that obtain between the four parts of the four noble truths, it is perhaps still the case that the idea of these eight came up when the Buddha first tried to articulate what this fourth truth might amount to. Of, course, perhaps it is a later addition to the dharma/teaching. i have patience. may your memory maintain its usefulness whenever it is beneficial for you and those around you! in peace for all beings,
Jinavamsa
On Sun, 8 Oct 1995, Alan Sponberg wrote:
>Regarding variations on the number of nidaanas, there are many different lists given in the early canonical literature, some shorter and some longer, but most if not all having a core sequence in common. Erich Frauwallner provides one useful summary survey of the varients in his _Philosophie des Buddhismus_, 29-60, of which there is, I believe, an English translation though I do not have the reference. One of the 9-fold nidaana chains he cites is in "Mahaanidaana-suttanta" itself (Diiga-nikaaya xiv: 19-22).
Would it be possible to get a cite for the translation? (The original is Berlin: Akademie-Verlag, 1969 for those who are interested.)
>I don't recall off-hand, but I suspect Lamotte treats this topic thoroughly as well in his _Histoire bouddhism indien_ (also available in Eng. translation).
Lamotte, Etienne. _History of Indian Buddhism: from the origins to the Saka era_. Sara Webb-Boin, tr. University Catholique de Louvain, Institut Orientaliste, 1988. ISSN 0076-1265 ; 36.
Regards,
john